Forum reorganization: VERY important issue

[Nanda]

Well, this is a forum about reverse engineering Nokia phones.

The things that some very intelligent people have been able to do and share with others here are undeniably good things, but by regularly checking the Nokia TDMA/CDMA section of the forum I've become very concerned about this one issue that I think should be brought foward and debated now that there's a major revamp of this forum coming up.

It refers to serial number tampering to avoid operator's black lists. Everyone knows that DCT3 has been thoroughly cracked and tampered with, and that changing IMEI on a DCT3 Nokia is a breeze. However that is not the case with TDMA/CDMA Nokia phones, whose serial numbers are called ESN.

I do believe that TDMA/CDMA Nokias have always been underexplored in terms of reverse engineering. Maybe the fact that these are isolated standards that are used only in American countries and a few others has limited the number of people actually reverse-engineering them. In any case, we TDMA/CDMA users can't for example update our phones' software at home without an expensive dongle (AFAIK).

Still, I do find it very worrying that the few people who do take on TDMA/CDMA phones seem to be only interested in the ESN changing part of the bussiness. And indeed in crime-ridden countries like most of Latin America an ESN changing proggie would be big bussiness indeed.

What worries me is that on the other side of the bussiness are people who could suffer badly because of a simple US$100 phone. Doesn't seem much to most of us, but to petty criminal with nothing to lose and easy access to illegal guns, in a national environment where life simply is, well, THAT cheap, any way to make selling a stolen phone easier could have tragic consequences.

Just look at the number of people posting in Spanish and Portuguese about ESN changing, and anyone who's been a victim of violence in Latin America knows what ESN change would mean in terms of cellphone robbery and this is not what reverse engineering is for.

And we also know that while in Europe the thief will just probably pick their victim's pocket and nick the cellphone, in Latin America we may find ourselves in front of the wrong end of a loaded gun. And in front of someone who'd lose nothing by pulling the trigger, even if it is for a phone that they'd be able to sell for maybe 10 US dollars, if that.

SO what I would like to do with this long post is to start a debate about what should be our attitude here towards ESN/IMEI changing.

I am BY NO MEANS implying that new developments on reverse engineering should be stopped, and I know that many of them relate to IMEI/ESN tampering at some point.

However I do find the debate valid because easy ESN changing would enable a true explosion in phone-related crime, especially in my region of the world (which is by far the most violent, we even beat war-torn Africa in murder statistics). And if I always tried to be as active a member of NFREE as I possibly could with my extremely limited knowledge of programming etc., I feel I would not wish to continue to contribute with a site that was enabling criminals in my country to murder innocent people for a worthless mobile phone.

I know this debate doesn't have the same wheigh in other parts of the world as it has over here in the Americas, as I said most users of this forum can't even contemplate the possibility of having a loaded gun pointed at them in the street. But it's a very serious issue here and I'd like to hear what people have to say about this.

Thanks!

[Thanh]

Hello :)
It does not only effect CDMA/TDMA........ here in Thailland also people get injured or even killed (yes, it was on the news several times already) by increasing numbers of cell phone robberies. The reason is that here you can sell a 2nd hand phone for quite a good price, for example a new 6610 cost 11.900 and a second hand 10.000 so you GET at least 8.000 when you sell one.....
The shops mostly don't care for where the phone came from, they take it and sell it to the next interested customer, if it's locked they unlock it..... security codes etc doesn't matter, they flash 'em and sell 'em...... When i sold mine 8250 i did not give them the security code and they hooked it with a laptop and after 5 minutes it was a new phone! But at least mine was indeed mine, and the same later when i sold my 6510, which i bought before brand new.....
What i wanted to say, even when NFREE does not contribute in IMEI/ESN changing procedures or the like, others will, and we won't stop anyone from robbing phones either..... In some countries they kill you for 2 dollars in cash! It doesn't need a expensive phone to get killed in law-less environments. I think if the ESN changing process becomes known, NFREE should engage in it, too, for the legal side of it...... Remember that almost everything has both a good and a bad side, be it phone reversing or having a loaded gun (my dad is hunter!).
Kind regards....
Thanh

[Nanda]

I partly agree with you, of course, but I think this ESN issue should be debate more in terms of what the moderators' approach should be towards it.

Should ESN/IMEI changing posts be moderated out of the board like Warez posts are?

In my opinion it's an even more serious issue than Warez given that software piracy doesn't seem to involve as much violence.

[toddz]

In my opinion, the TDMA/CDMA forum went down hill a long time ago. The information there is no longer about reversing, it is mostly 'I want this ...', 'I did this what can I do now ...', and 'Where can I find this ...' Just a lot of noise and no real substance. At one point, it almost turned into a warez forum but that was stopped pretty quick.

As for the ESN changing, in my opinion, I don't think that you will have to worry about that anytime soon. I highly doubt that one person is going to come up with a solution. As for a team of people working on it, that is even less likely because the people on the TDMA/CDMA forum just don't seem to play nice. Look at the situation from a realists point of view. It has been over 2 years for GSM flashing and IMEI changing. However in this time, TDMA/CDMA still does not have flashing or ESN.

Just my thoughts,
Todd

[Nanda]

I think you're right, Todd. The mentality that enabled GSM to be explored just isn't there in TDMA/CDMA.

People actually want to trade programs instead of sharing them.

Anyway, there's always the risk as I believe there's a criminal element coming to play - just look at the sheer number of posts about ESN changing, or ESN change requests.

[marky752000]

I don't much about TDMA/CDMA etc, but with regard to IMEI changing....

I think that it should banned. Simple as that.

the discussion of ways to do it and the sharing of software that does it.

Why do you need to change the IMEI on a GSM other than because it has been blacklisted.

Can anyone think of a reason, I cannot.

Also in the sales section people buying and selling uem chips should also be banned.

We are not thevies ourselves, so why should we help them.

[Kaibigan]

Hi,

I recall in a news article somewhere that efforts are being made to make IMEI or cellular s/n changing illegal worldwide. Take for instance this article I was just reading:
News (http://www.cellular-news.com/story/8970.shtml)

If efforts are taken by governments worldwide to enforce a law similar to the international law recently enforced in the computer industry regarding computer viruses, then it is a big step in discouraging crimes involving cellular phones.

It is now in the hands of the founders of NFREE and its moderators if they want to address and deal with this issue and no doubt if they are smart they will take it into consideration. For those who know better, it is not a question whether we can reverse engineer the technology. Time and time again we have proven we can. Rather how we use the technology that matters most.

That's all for now...

[cprafferty]

@ marky752000

You are WRONG to try to ban people who sell UEM chip THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD USE.

At times I have got phone in for repair and used a FUBU to recover them BUT the IMEI is normally junk (like all zeros etc) is it WRONG for me to change the IMEI NO I DON'T THINK SO!

the same applys with UEM chips yes some people will use them wrongly but most of us need them to repair a "dead" phone.

[Nanda]

Like I said before,



I am BY NO MEANS implying that new developments on reverse engineering should be stopped, and I know that many of them relate to IMEI/ESN tampering at some point.


So that addresses situations like cpraffety's, but doesn't solve his and others' problems.

However I still believe we should find ways to make it more difficult for those involved in mobile crime to have access to such technologies through this forum, and all other GSM forums to be honest.

There's no easy way to do that, though, and at some point I think difficult decisions will have to be made.

I think all the people who work in mobile phone repair have acquired the relevant software and knowledge. By banning ESN/IMEI change technologies, or at least restricting them, in the forum we may be blocking new entrants into the repair market, but I think that is a price that's worth paying.

One may argue that the crooks would find other ways of aquiring the software or the skills, but let's at least eliminate his easiest and cheapest option which is to give them the tools, or even make the tools for them (in case our developers crack ESN, for instance).

[marky752000]

@cprafferty


You are WRONG to try to ban people who sell UEM chip THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD USE.

Yes they have, getting round a blacklisted IMEI



the same applys with UEM chips yes some people will use them wrongly but most of us need them to repair a "dead" phone.

if the phone is dead, send it to Nokia let them fix it, since most DCT4 phone that are worth repairing are still under warranty, as you probably know you get 18 months from the date of manufacture, so its really only the older 8310's and 6310's that would be out, (even then just make up a proof of purchase and it's sorted). And you can still charge your customer for the service so your not loosing out.

and don't try to pull the water damage one out of the bag because if you clean it well enough Nokia will never be able to tell. I know because I have done it.

As for DCT3's I know what you are talking about I have seen it happen, and like you I have fixed it, but lets not talk about it and not show others how to do it because it does get missused and you cannot deny that.

How many posts have you seem on this forum from newbie's looking IMEI changing software and then never seen them post again???

I have only really been here two months and I have seen a few.

[toddz]

I think in the end, you are walking a fine line between the legal use of resetting ESN/IMEI number and the illegal use of changing the number.

Here in the USA, we have been very lucky to not be affected by the proliferation of ESN changing software. I believe that this fact alone has kept the rate of which cellular phones are stolen way down. Here you can leave your phone out at a pub, heck you can even walk away and people don't even think twice. From what I hear, if you try that in the UK, it will be gone in a second.

I would hope that the people who develop these type of applications, think twice before they release them onto the free market.

Todd

P.S. Just becuase a lot of people are asking to change the IMEI/ESN doesn't mean that somebody is actually helping/doing it for them.

[Nanda]

P.S. Just becuase a lot of people are asking to change the IMEI/ESN doesn't mean that somebody is actually helping/doing it for them.

That's not what I meant. But when someone asks about IMEI change and instead of telling them it's illegal we direct them to a thread that explains how to do it, then I think we're helping them change IMEI (without having a clue of why they'd need that).

You don't need to change IMEI after flashing a DCT3, that's for sure.

EEPROM problem? Would you really ask about IMEI change if you messed up a phone's EEPROM...

And I hear that the latest version of Rolis doesn't support IMEI change anymore. A sign of times, perhaps?

Cheers,

[pico]

the times changed, along time ago..
no big nokia 3rd party developer will release future imei change/rebuilt solution; cos of hastle from law.
rolis released special uk version of noktools, for english users who can get busted just having imei change s/w on the machine.

now dct4 unlock codes is free, expect even more tougher shit from nokia in the newer models security. dunno bout imei, thats not really a big crack in dct4 *yet*

[SmOg]

I just wanna give a tip to the administrator. Is it possible to "downgrade" the search button into 3 word search? Because there are many words with 3 word @ mobile part like MCU, PPM, and so on. I could make the searching @ he forum easier.

Thank you!
;)

[BOEBOE]

@Sm0g,

To go off-topic, you can ssearch for this terms:

MCU* , PPM*,...

[SmOg]

LOL i didnt expect that! Thx for the info!! :D :D

[cprafferty]

@marky752000

Oh dear oh dear oh dear

LETS SEE

you asked a question (shock horror)

"Why do you need to change the IMEI on a GSM other than because it has been blacklisted.

Can anyone think of a reason, I cannot."

So I gave you an answer

now lets see what you said

"Yes they have, getting round a blacklisted IMEI"

"if the phone is dead, send it to Nokia...etc"

well the first one is nullified by your second point.

THE REASON WHY PEOPLE DON'T SEND STUFF TO NOKIA IS....

That they don't have the time with all that messing about

also with this point

"and don't try to pull the water damage one out of the bag because if you clean it well enough Nokia will never be able to tell. I know because I have done it."

you are admitting fraud and that not very nice as well.

[toddz]

@Nanda,

I understood what you meant, but I think that my dicussion was misleading because the IMEI changing was mixed in with with ESN changing. However changing the IMEI is not the same as changing the ESN on a phone. Sure they similar (a serial number for identificaiton) but they are used in very different ways.