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View Full Version : Locking Legislation, Consumer Rights. What are we talking about?



April Flowers
10-02-2006, 06:21 AM
I would be very interested in hearing FACTUAL, DOCUMENTED stories and/or hyperlinks of legal tests on the subject of network locking. Please restrain from posting hearsay as it only confuses the subject.

I live in the USA and use Cingular (on of the few GSM carriers here). Contracts run 1 or 2 years and only recently have they opened with the pay-as-you-go market. As I am also Brazilian and Portuguese, I travel a lot and would hate to pay Cingular's international roaming charges.
I just purchased a Nokia 6682 and called Cingular to have it unlocked. My previous phone was a SE T616 and they had provided me with the unlock code without any hassle at all (although I suspect it was by mistake, because it "happened" during my Nth tech support call regarding the phone's functionality).
This time around I am getting the following answers:
1 - It cannot be done.
2 - It can only be done by Nokia.
3 - They don't know what I am talking about.
I am not too worried. My phone was free and the calls to their tech/customer support are free. I am perfectly willing to bother the hell out of them until they give in/give me the code/commit to an answer by e-mail (documented)/
I have searched the FTC (Federal Trade & Commision) site for a clear answer and will submit a question to them regarding this issue.
Specifically, I am concerned that:
1 - I have entered into a contract for the mobile service, not a lease or rental on the service AND phone unit.
2 - I am obligated to pay them a monthly fee for said service whether I use it or not, regardless of the SIM card/network combination I am using.
3 - The phone was SOLD to ME. Not leased or rented. Moreover it was sold by a 3rd party, not Cingular (although Cingular sold it to them originally...)
4 - Nowhere in the contract and/or service agreement with Cingular, nor on the unit's, is there any mention of a network lock stipulation or warning.
My reasoning is that this practice would be aking to a person buying a car with a device that would prevent it from operating with any other gasoline but one (or more) specific brand; or buying a flashlight that can only work with a certain brand of battery (my key word here is BRAND, mind you).

As from my side, I will post my letter to the FTC and any subsequent informations I receive, as well as keeping you all posted on my annoyance project (I hope I can keep up the 1 call a day schedule I've kept up for the past week, but it does feel very silly).

April Flowers
14-02-2006, 04:22 PM
Firstly Nokia would not supply the code for your phone as THEY supply hardware/software to the Network Operators in the form of laptops to produce the unlock codes

In the UK it took phone companies around 5 months to get their act together regarding BB5, and the majority of cellular providers in the UK will now provide a working unlock code for a phone

Unfortunately to date Nokia has only released 1 or 2 handset which are BB5, so my suspicion is that Cingular are not able to provide working codes as they do not have the new soft/hardware to produce the codes that you require

As the BB5 handsets are not unlockable by other means, you are in the position of owning a very fancy paperweight if you do not have Cingular service ps the BB5 phones have a chip and pin dongle hardware setup so it sounds pretty hard to crack

PS Cingular have had a PAYG service for sometime now even before their merger with AT&T and you have been able to buy the locked handset outright without a plan


Very true. When I spoke of the Pay As You Go service, I meant compared to [ie] Brazil or Europe.
As to Cingular not having the software/hardware to unlock their phones, it seems, in my view, a very unlikely scenario, but possible nevertheless...
Your post is the first one I hear mention of a hardware based security system for the BB5 phones. Elsewhere I hear that the service provider companies are (currently) the only ones able to provide end users with unlock codes. My understanding is that if the phone can be unlocked via code, then there is an algorithm involved and dangerous/expensive hardware hacks are not necessary.
BTW, would you know how PUK1 and PUK2 codes relate to SIM unlocking? My recollection is that when my T616 was unlocked, it happend during the process of unlocking the PIN numbers.

cjard
30-05-2006, 10:21 AM
BTW, would you know how PUK1 and PUK2 codes relate to SIM unlocking? My recollection is that when my T616 was unlocked, it happend during the process of unlocking the PIN numbers.

PUK1 and PUK2 are used to unblock a blocked sim that has locked itself down because the PIN1 or PIN2 was entered 3 times incorrectly. Entering the PUK1 or PUK2 10 times incorrectly permanently destroys the SIM card.

A SIM is a small computer that has the power to use the phone display and keypad (effectively) so when you see your phone asking for a pin, it is actually the computer inside the SIM card that is asking. Upon entering the correct pin, the number of attempts is reset to 3. If you use all 3 chances, the SIM locks itself and asks you for the PUK. You have to use the PUK to reset the chances, and are forced to change the PIN after entering a correct PUK.

Its like forgetting your cash card pin, and having to go into the bank and answer security questions to be issued with a new pin.

It is not related to the phone unit being locked to a particular network provider.

cjard
30-05-2006, 10:25 AM
I would be very interested in hearing FACTUAL, DOCUMENTED stories and/or hyperlinks of legal tests on the subject of network locking. Please restrain from posting hearsay as it only confuses the subject.

I live in the USA and use Cingular (on of the few GSM carriers here). Contracts run 1 or 2 years and only recently have they opened with the pay-as-you-go market. As I am also Brazilian and Portuguese, I travel a lot and would hate to pay Cingular's international roaming charges.
I just purchased a Nokia 6682 and called Cingular to have it unlocked. My previous phone was a SE T616 and they had provided me with the unlock code without any hassle at all (although I suspect it was by mistake, because it "happened" during my Nth tech support call regarding the phone's functionality).
This time around I am getting the following answers:
1 - It cannot be done.
2 - It can only be done by Nokia.
3 - They don't know what I am talking about.
I am not too worried. My phone was free and the calls to their tech/customer support are free. I am perfectly willing to bother the hell out of them until they give in/give me the code/commit to an answer by e-mail (documented)/
I have searched the FTC (Federal Trade & Commision) site for a clear answer and will submit a question to them regarding this issue.
Specifically, I am concerned that:
1 - I have entered into a contract for the mobile service, not a lease or rental on the service AND phone unit.
2 - I am obligated to pay them a monthly fee for said service whether I use it or not, regardless of the SIM card/network combination I am using.
3 - The phone was SOLD to ME. Not leased or rented. Moreover it was sold by a 3rd party, not Cingular (although Cingular sold it to them originally...)
4 - Nowhere in the contract and/or service agreement with Cingular, nor on the unit's, is there any mention of a network lock stipulation or warning.
My reasoning is that this practice would be aking to a person buying a car with a device that would prevent it from operating with any other gasoline but one (or more) specific brand; or buying a flashlight that can only work with a certain brand of battery (my key word here is BRAND, mind you).

As from my side, I will post my letter to the FTC and any subsequent informations I receive, as well as keeping you all posted on my annoyance project (I hope I can keep up the 1 call a day schedule I've kept up for the past week, but it does feel very silly).

I agree, and additionally, I fail to see why contract phones are network locked. You bought a phone and they subsidised the handset. You agreed to pay a contract (which pays for the subsidy) whether or not you use the phone at all so the network provider is going to get their money back no matter what unit you use. I dont see, in these cases, why they should lock the unit.

In PAYG cases, i can see why. They might subsidise the unit a little, and they want you to use their network to pay for the subsidy. With PAYG there is nothing forcing you to give money to the network, with a contract, there is.

The perverse thing is that Orange in the UK charge £20 to unlock a phone. Does this mean that that is the limit of their PAYG subsidy? hmm...

Hunzol
01-06-2006, 01:17 AM
I have a 6680 which is a paper weight, some tourist brought it over to AUS and sold it to here and then someone gave it to me, it seems that it's locked to Vodafone Ireland, it just seems a waste, sitting there on my desk doing nothing, I rang Vodafone IE, they're a bunch of tossers, they just brush you off promising that they will email me the unlocking code, they keep asking for a mobile number but I haven't got one from IE.

cjard
01-06-2006, 11:28 AM
I phoned my service provider to check if they could unlock your 6680 and i'm afraid they (Orange) cant unlock another network's phone. I presume this is because they are only alowed to generate codes using their own network code ID (its soemthing like 230-33 for orange) and your phone, being locked to a different network wouldnt do any good if i just pretended it was my phone with the IMEI. Additionally, the networks here charge for the unlocking (to PAYG customers at least) by ensuring they have at least £20 on their phone credit, then deducting from the credit. If you have no account with them, they cant do this, and i doubt they accept payment by Visa because it's different departments that do the unlocking to those that do the charging.

Given that BB5 is a no-can-do unlock at the minute, i guess looking for a vodafone ireland sim card on ebay (uk) might be the best option.. Then you really will have a number. Alternately you could maybe buy a irish sim from a phone shop online (.ie is the country code for ireland)and have it shipped.. its probably approaching the point where selling it and buying an aussie 6680 would be best

One thing to note; often phones here are stolen and blacklisted with the networks central database meaning that they wont work anywhere in the uk with any provider. The only solution is to change the IMEI or sell the phone abroad. You may get to the point where Voda IE will refuse to supply the unlock code if it is a blacklisted IMEI. One of my mates at work has a voda UK contract. I'll ring their customer services and see if they would be willing to unlock a vodafone ireland phone. Do you want to give me your IMEI incase they say yes and want it there and then?

Hunzol
01-06-2006, 01:50 PM
pm sent ;-)

I just find it annoying that to get you off the phone they would lie to you, "we will send you the unlock code in 5 working days via email", I got off the phone and I thought, yeah right, the first call I made, the guy couldn't even find the imei in the system.... It's a nice looking phone, flash is cool, I don't know if I would buy a brand new one though, I think I would rather get a newer Nokia, not sure on what, N80 is a flop with the battery and the N91 has firmware issues and low res screen, not sure about SE's.